Car Carry Update for CAGOs and Philly
Car appreciating gun owners, unite. We are very pleased to be involved in the recent discussions of our law abiding, gun owning friends over at PAFOA.org. An active contributer, Mr. Anthony Mills brought it to our attention that our trusty Car Carry Chart isn’t quite as thorough as we’d like it to be. In the interest of providing the Penn LAGO community with the most accurate, least confusing information possible, we’re issuing a revised Car Carry Chart. Thanks Mr. Mills.
It is important to note that in our original post, we gave no advice that would “send someone to jail” if they decided to follow it. Instead, if followed, it incorrectly over-restricted the free exercise of a narrow type of items. We are gun owners and free exercise advocates, therefore, we reissue a more comprehensive chart.
DISCLAIMER: Keep in mind that the chart was always intended to be used as a general reference. We noted that a single sheet of paper could never cover every single possible scenario. If we did that, your chart would be the size of the yellow pages, and that wouldn’t be very helpful at all. The purpose of a chart is to give complex information in a graphical form.
First, we want to clarify that some firearms regulated by the NFA (such as short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns) are not subject to the prohibitions found in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106.1. This means that they fall under the Pennsylvania definition of “firearms” in 6106 and if you have a valid Pennsylvania License to Carry a Firearm, you may have them loaded in the car.
Other longer rifles [and shotguns] which are still subject to the NFA, such as machine guns with a barrel over 16 inches, however, do not fall under the Pennsylvania definition of “firearms” as defined in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6102. Not so regrettably, we had some pretty large fully automatic weapons on our minds at the time when we posted the chart . . . some of our personal favorites.
So our NFA section was a bit over-inclusive, and may have prompted SBR and SBS owners to keep them unloaded in their car when they may not have had to. To hell with that, right? Law abiding gun owners (LAGOs) have the right to enjoy every last bit of their freedom (responsibly). We made an adjustment accordingly.
Now we move on to discussion about Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love, and their restrictions on guns.
We’d like to address what seems to be a common concern regarding the transport of unloaded long guns, in a car, in Philadelphia.
In 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108 we find:
No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:
(1) such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
(2) such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
In the past, all of our peers have taken this to mean “don’t open carry in Philly without a LTCF.”
With regards to our chart, some of our new friends have contended that this applies to long guns being transported in a car.
Given the language, we think their interpretation is strained, and we respectfully disagree. After all, if you can’t disagree among friends, we’re in a lot of trouble.
First and most importantly, there are no published, and therefore precedent carrying, decisions in the Pennsylvania Superior Court or the Pennsylvania Supreme Court on this issue.
First we look to what is in the UFA about all of this. Generally, transport of an unloaded long gun in your car is legal, with or without a License to Carry Firearms. Transporting a “firearm” requires a LTCF barring a few exceptions. Transporting a loaded long gun is prohibited by §6106.1 regardless of your LTCF status. As a result, this debate would come down to whether transport of an unloaded long gun in your car, using public streets in Philadelphia, would violate §6108.
We maintain that it does not.
While the courts have not specifically addressed this issue, we believe our reasoning is sound. We have included it below.
In §6106, the License to Carry Firearms is specifically addressed. Here, the legislature specifically prohibits carrying “a firearm in any vehicle” or “concealed on or about [one’s] person” barring some exceptions. While obtaining a LTCF serves as an exception, it does not serve as the sole exception. The legislature specifically recognized that in order for certain activities to be possible (for example, purchasing a firearm and bringing it home) other exceptions were necessary. While §6108 references §6106(b), only certain protections afforded under §6106(b) pertain to long guns. For example, the protections pertaining to law enforcement, hunting and federal law (18 U.S.C. 926A) do NOT technically apply to long guns under §6106. If you take this position, some absurd results may come about such as:
- Could the legislature have intended to restrict the transport of long guns by law enforcement under §6108?
- Does this mean that Philadelphia outright rejects its citizens’ the opportunity to take in their cars, on the streets in their cars, long guns to go hunting elsewhere within the state?
- Does it mean that Philadelphia outwardly rejects 926A, a federal law, but only as it applies to long guns?
To interpret carry “upon the public streets or upon any public property” to include transport in motor vehicles on the streets, would effectively mean exactly that.
Also, we do some very limited guidance from our appellate courts in a related discussion on the other provision of 6108. We have case law discussing the factors considered in determining whether something is “public property” under §6108. Com. v. Goosby, 251 Pa. Super. 326 (1977). In that case, the court found that a man on a sidewalk used by the general public was “upon public property” for purposes of the statute. The court looked at the character of the use of the property, who had access to the property, whether or not private individuals have greater dominion over the property than the general public. An analogous argument can be made that the inside of one’s vehicle has very different characteristics than those listed by the court. The public doesn’t have access to the inside of one’s vehicle as they would outside on the public streets or public property. Typically (we would expect) an individual has greater dominion over his own vehicle than the random public. These appear to be the factors the court has considered in that context and we believe is persuasive in our context.
The bottom line is, until we have case law interpreting that particular issue, we are forced to use logical interpretations of the language provided. In our humble opinion, §6108 does not preclude the transport of unloaded long guns in a vehicle in Philadelphia.
We thank the wonderful people at PAFOA.org and Mr. Mills in particular. PAFOA.org is a great resource and recommend that forum highly.